OFFICIAL Rig Nazi Thread

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Author	Comment
Pt Zell	OFFICIAL Rig Nazi Thread	Lead	[-]
Ramón Julian Puigblanque 5 years (18/05/09 11:20 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Sunday arvo a friend was packing up from climbing and sent me these photos. There was a group of lads of middle eastern heritage (incluede incase you recognise them) climbing on this rig. Please note the use of two bollards, I guess to back up the system. I'm pleased they left long tails in the anchor rope. The white rope is polly stuff.. about 10mm diameter. The tape looked like it used to be from tatchet tie down straps. A knot in the tape has lodged in the mallion , the redundancy knot in the tape puts the mallion knot under stress becuase it can't self equalise. Over the edge (no photo) is a 1-1/2" bunnings pulley like you'd use on a clothes line. Climb is above Bridal Party / Exhilarant area, is not that are reknown for being hard on gear protection? I didn't find out what kind of rope they were climbing on. Time was about 2 pm. Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse"
manacubus		#1	[-]
(18/05/09 11:59 AM) Shhh! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Oh wow! This issue of course is not really the mallion (55kn) or even the poly rope, but with the single bit of shitty knotted tape and no edge padding. For the record, my first setups at KP (15 years ago) were with thinner poly rope than that and top belays, because we could only afford a 20m length of static to climb on and hence couldn't set a 'proper' top-rope So I wonder what the purists are worried about. The spirit of adventure is alive and well even at KP.
crankdown		#2	[-]
Jamb junkie 7 years (18/05/09 2:13 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I see "great spirits of adventure" every week at KP. The latest craze I have noticed is to belay a lead climber from the rail. IMHO, this puts an outward pull on the first bolt for every fall (but especially a fall on the first bolt) but also, allows for the lead climber to get some lovely rope burns as they fall on their rope. I've been pointing this out to folks trying to explain its in their best interest to belay underneath the leader. I'm getting mixed reactions. However, I think I'm going to keep informing as long as my patience doesn't wear thin as I'd like the first bolt to be in good condition for my falls. What do other's think?
manacubus		#3	[-]
(18/05/09 2:41 PM) Shhh! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Teach them if they'll listen I reckon, otherwise you'll go to a 'real' cliff and see the same practice, as I did at Brooyar recently, with one chap anchoring his stitch plate to a tree six metres away from the wall, and then attempt to belay his (beginner) lead climber, who was in fact falling on the first bolt. It was not nice to watch.
MikeCarlotto		#4	[-]
Frog fiend 4 years (18/05/09 5:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's just awsome....... the sling over the edge just makes my gut churn.
davereeve		#5	[-]
Kleman Becan 3 years (18/05/09 6:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hmmm... must have been my fault I'm afraid. I was at the other end of the cliffs about that time commenting to Adam on the recent improvement in TR setups. The ones we were cleaning up around were all excellent. Crankdown... I don't think you need to worry that the outward pull on the first bolt is going to weaken it for subsequent use. A glue-in is about as strong in tension as it is in shear. Of course, that doesn't mean its OK to belay a leader away from the base of the cliff.... that's another issue.
Snappy Tom		#6	[-]
Lunchbox legend 1 year (18/05/09 9:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	crankdown wrote: I see "great spirits of adventure" every week at KP. The latest craze I have noticed is to belay a lead climber from the rail. IMHO, this puts an outward pull on the first bolt for every fall (but especially a fall on the first bolt) but also, allows for the lead climber to get some lovely rope burns as they fall on their rope. I've been pointing this out to folks trying to explain its in their best interest to belay underneath the leader. I'm getting mixed reactions. However, I think I'm going to keep informing as long as my patience doesn't wear thin as I'd like the first bolt to be in good condition for my falls. What do other's think? I've seen numerous people lead belaying from 4-5 meters back (not secured to the rail) and with enough rope out so that it's basically touching the ground between the belayer and the cliff. I think top-rope belaying from back at the rails gives a bad impression to people who don't know any better. If it's good for the other 50 people here, even though I am doing something slightly different, surely it's good for me?!
davereeve		#7	[-]
Kleman Becan 3 years (19/05/09 7:49 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Real gains are made either through direct pain or the very near avoidance of pain. Every day, thousands of new drivers demonstrate this principle. All the experienced can do is to offer guidance where it will be accepted, and then hope for the best. That doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to guide the actions of newbies, but it does mean that its ultimately their call and their life.
ross ferguson		#8	[-]
Eduard Marin 5 years (19/05/09 9:58 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The latest craze I have noticed is to belay a lead climber from the rail. Yea not that new. More than 15 years ago when I was shopping around for a auto locking belay device, I was advised by a shop assistant at a leading Brisbane shop this was a reasonable method and I should save my money. Another reason I am pretty much self taught. Crankdown.. I don't think you need to worry that the outward pull on the first bolt is going to weaken it for subsequent use Dave.. while this is true you know its not telling the full story, its all about the method. People will and do assume all bolts are glue-ins. What about carrots? They will and do assume this is OK for trad when they progress to trad. The leader can place great gear, only to have it zippered out from the ground up. I've seen numerous people lead belaying from 4-5 meters back (not secured to the rail) and with enough rope out so that it's basically touching the ground between the belayer and the cliff. Its also adding extra rope into the system that can lead to longer than nessary falls when belayer is yanked towards the wall. This can create ground falls, rope burns, ledge falls etc. People are belaying like this because they are only getting little bits of information and then putting 2 and 2 together to make 5. Try to teach anyone who will listen, you could save someone a world of pain. Ross..
RG		#9	[-]
Confident leader 2 years (19/05/09 6:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Its also adding extra rope into the system that can lead to longer than nessary falls when belayer is yanked towards the wall. This can create ground falls, rope burns, ledge falls etc. " The extra rope in the system and longer fall can be used to make the fall more dynamic and softer. Just wanted to point out it is not all bad and not to just assume anyone belaying like this has no idea what they are doing. Although it's probably not a good idea at KP, probably best left to overhanging routes where long falls are all good.
manacubus		#10	[-]
(20/05/09 10:03 AM) Shhh! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I know what you're trying to say, and maybe I'm feeling argumentative because I haven't had my coffee yet but if I see a belayer standing 4-5 metres away from the wall with the rope looping down onto the ground and then back up to the first piece of gear, I am going to assume they have no idea. If you want to provide a soft catch, you do this with your body, not by paying out slack. The other issue with this is that belayers get injured when they get slingshot towards the wall.
ianneilo		#11	[-]
Confident leader (20/05/09 11:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	in response to Mike - my head spun when I saw that. Did anyone say anything to the said climbers down below?
MikeCarlotto		#12	[-]
Frog fiend 4 years (20/05/09 11:43 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Got to agree with Lee on that call, you don't give a dynamic belay with more rope out.
RG		#13	[-]
Confident leader 2 years (20/05/09 11:58 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	ok maybe having the rope trailing along the ground is not good, but you can use your body by moving towards the wall with the fall. Obviously you would have to be sensible in your judgement about what is going to happen in the event of a fall in this case. I will jump with a fall as opposed to using this method but I have known people who do this - although I think it was more for the case when the leader was light that this was effective
luke		#14	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (20/05/09 10:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	RG wrote: ok maybe having the rope trailing along the ground is not good, but you can use your body by moving towards the wall with the fall. Obviously you would have to be sensible........... ......................as, more than likely it won't be you using your body - it will be the laws of physics pissing it's self at you as it uses your body to throw you at a solid object. I guess a concust belayer might satisfice as a crash mat? I am being facetious because I have been chucked forward a lot further than what I thought would take up the impact on the leader once before.
brat		#15	[-]
Ethan Pringle 4 years (22/05/09 2:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you're standing so that the lead angle to the first piece is 45 degrees from the vertical you will only have half of your effective weight. ie the first pro is 4m and you're 4 metres out, your effective weight will increase to 100% as that angle lessens to plumb, unfortunately if this occurs because of a fall you'll have your own momentum to deal with as well!! So unless you weight at least double the leader you're in for some slammin'!
brat		#16	[-]
Ethan Pringle 4 years (22/05/09 2:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	PS, the climber has also had enough slack/fall to accelerate as well, especially with a bit of rope out above the last pro, not so easy to stop if you're pendelluming as well! Pendelluming, is that a word?
TrisTheClimber		#17	[-]
HB 4 years (22/05/09 4:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To go down the Shakespear path - it is now.
luke		#18	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (22/05/09 5:47 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	brat wrote: PS, the climber has also had enough slack/fall to accelerate as well, especially with a bit of rope out above the last pro, not so easy to stop if you're pendelluming as well! Pendelluming, is that a word? My guess is that penduluming may provide an example of the spelling of the original noun with the suffix, `ing, added to make it a verb? Pedentick on my behalf to get hung up on the spelling, really.
luke	Shake spear	#19	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (22/05/09 5:53 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	TrisTheClimber wrote: To go down the Shakespear path - it is now. If someone was shaking a spear at me I would concede to their `Shakespeare' like status at the time and willingly accept their decree. Friggen, padentic again!
thisrod		#20	[-]
Kleman Becan 8 years (22/05/09 7:22 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If you're standing so that the lead angle to the first piece is 45 degrees from the vertical you will only have half of your effective weight. [Compared to 0 degrees.] I'm not sure about that. If by "effective weight" you mean the component of the belayer's weight along the line of the rope, just after their feet leave the ground, then the ratio is 1/sqrt(2), so they effectively have 70% of their usual weight. In a high factor fall, friction and the belayer's inertia will both be more important than the belayer's weight, anyway. The real issues are that the belayer could slam into the wall and drop the climber, and that there's likely to be extra slack in the system, which could cause a ground or ledge fall. Last Edited By: thisrod 22/05/09 7:43 PM. Edited 1 times.

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OFFICIAL Rig Nazi Thread

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