I'm pretty definate about my hatred of paint at the bottom of climbs. To me it's just graffiti What do other people think?
Bill
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Route names marked with paint?
| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 Bill Strachan |
Route names marked with paint? |
Lead | |
|
Beanie-wearing boulderer
2 years
(22/10/08 9:05 PM) |
Should routes be marked with painted initials etc? (Result) |
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|
hlw |
Re: Paint markers | ||
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Lunchbox legend
(22/10/08 10:12 PM) |
I dunno...
In places like Mt Greville and Glasshouses, it would seem to me that they are not such a good thing. We should be trying to maintain a pristine environment, not just for our enjoyment but so we don't worsen any of the access issues around at the moment. Also, if your heading out that way you would probs have some route finding skills anyway. I can see where the "discreet marking" side is coming from, but walking the line between unobtrusive and useful would be difficult. For example, I was at Ngungun a while back and it was only after Dad and I had found a route, set up a toprope and climbed it with a group of friends that we noticed the tiny little camoflagued initial at the base of the cliff. On the other hand are places like KP. Let's face it... KP isn't the crown jewel of SEQ adventure climbing or particular well known for its aesthetics (I nearly stepped on a human turd setting up a toprope once  ), so I
reckon the initials at the start of most climbs are fine, not to mention useful given the number of climbs and the fact that they all
look the same  . Having said that, some markings (like MOBS or FOBS...
I can't remember which) are just plain overkill. I mean foot high letters aren't really need are they? I know we are in an ageing population but
still....
I'm probs just ranting now so I'll stop... |
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Snappy Tom |
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Lunchbox legend 1 year
(22/10/08 11:00 PM) |
Topos and good descriptions should be enough. If it's a really really unfeatured area maybe a tiny little thing every 20m or so.
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Bill Strachan |
Paint | ||
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Beanie-wearing boulderer
2 years
(23/10/08 5:33 AM) |
Ross and I were at Tibro yesterday and after seeing the new big white letters (http://queenslandclimbing...m/reply/29534#reply-29534),
had a bit of a discussion.
When big green arrows appeared on caves route we were all unanimous in wanting them removed; so what's the difference between someone using green arrows to show them the way and someone else using paint to show the start? Would there be an uproar if I, a non QLDer, went and removed all these markings from Glasshouse, Frog, KP etc? Surely it would be one less visual environmental impact for land managers to see. Bill |
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Pt Zell |
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Ramón Julian Puigblanque 5 years
(23/10/08 1:17 PM) |
I can't see this as a simple YES / NO question.
I like the markings at Frog.. I like the marking at Tibro FOR THE CAVES ROUTE and similar other discreet markers!! even frog could be a little smaller but I think it's well marked. I don't like the KP huge markings, again the smaller ones are good. I don't like the big arrows or huge letters. Paint cans should not be used.. but I like the little white paint pens.. they are pretty handy.. Topo's only work IF there are enough to unmistakenly detirmine if you are at Clemency or umm anothere one.. There is no point having a beautiful photo taken from a helicopter of the wall when you are standing at the base looking up. On topo's Louise Shepards Araps guide is ok.. but you need to be an engineer to understand it, I even know engineers who struggle with her toppos.. the Mentz book is 150 % better.. Photos are great, clear and you can get far enough back from the wall that it makes sense. I look at markers like bolts.. UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE OR ARE FOR>> YOU DON"T SEE THEM.. I've spoken with many walkers, some experienced and most mum and dad walkers who had NEVER noticed the carrots on ngun ngun. or any other places.. Of course we wander into a zone and the stick out.. Northbrook gorge is a great example. fixed hangers that the people I've walked with never saw in the many times they visited. Keep the markers YES.. but leave them discreet. |
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Bill Strachan |
Personal view | ||
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Beanie-wearing boulderer
2 years
(23/10/08 4:11 PM) |
I just wanted to be clear that what I have posted above is my own personal view and am only interested in what others think, it has nothing to do with the agenda of ACA Qld. I also want to be clear that I have no intention of going out removing any markings - decisions like these i think should be made through ACA, with public consultation and close communication with area reps etc. Ok....clear.....personal view......no plans of midnight raids to Frog 
Bill |
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rightarmbad |
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Adam Ondra 6 years
(23/10/08 9:09 PM) |
I am fine with tiny maybe dark grey paint pens style of marking if the cliff is just a %#%@! to navigate.
Possibly put the mark down near ground level with a note in the guide to say where to look. The marks at Frog etc, are now part of history, just like abandoned sawmills in the rain forest. Leave em be. Somewhere that has distinctive features should never be marked. Just highlights the benefits of going to an area with somebody that knows that area, for the first couple of visits. No letters required. |
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Epic Steve |
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Jamb junkie 3 years
(27/10/08 7:06 PM) |
I can see the day when we all have to carry special UV blacklight torches to show the hidden letters (in flurecent blue) at the base of the rock...be a bit
like Indiana Jones finding a hidden treasure...ha!!!
But seriously, I think that there are arguments for both sides...take Frog, be a cold day in hell when a bush walker decides to tackle the stairs of death, to venture to the bottom of the cliff, and as that area (bottom of the cliff line) is pretty well used 100% by climbers, then small, discreet, occaisional lettering (preferably in a contrasting natural colour rather than white!) should be seen as an aid to safe climbing as backing off a 22 that you though was a 16 would be a tad hard, and involve leaving a rather bomber anchor to be lowered on. The spanked climber would then be compelled to go to the top, (amongst the choss and rubble) to rap in and retrieve their gear...again, not a good practice for climbing safety for those below... On the other hand, climbing somewhere like the Warrumbungles (NSW), where the multi pitch climbs are long, all trad and have huge walk ins...route finding is a pain in the ass...but it somehow adds character to the place and a sense of discovery and adventure. To arrive at the base of "Flight Of The Phoenix" or "Caucus Corner" and find painted letters at the base would totally destroy the wilderness feeling you have when climbing there (hint, hint for a better guide book, that wasn't printed during the reign of Bob Hawk and a has a tad more description than 35m 18, go up trending left...). So I think the climbing community as a whole has a responsibility to control when, where and how routes are marked...in a way that is useful but sensitive to the environment...amen!!! |
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|
luke |
No paint is my default principle | ||
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Tomáš Mrázek 5 years
(12/11/08 10:31 AM) |
No paint - that's my general attitude. Yeah it has helped at times, but if it wasn't there I would have worked it out, or otherwise would have had to use judgement to back off appropriately if I got on the wrong line that was out of my depth. |
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phil box |
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Patxi Usobiaga 9 years
(12/11/08 11:55 AM) Dr Phool |
Hey Bill, those huge letters at the base of Celestial Wall are an aberration. They should be removed forthwith. If you are so inclined to take a bucket and
some soap and water then feel free. They appeared around the time of Mick and Alex. Those letters you could nearly see from space, they are a blight on that
part of Tibro and should never have been put there, I don't know what the person was thinking who sprayed them there. Grrrrr, not cool.
I do know that there had been some discreet lettering done (not by me but I approve) in that area and that was fine. Someone had come along and thought they would do a community service by posting a billboard sign to indicate the start of these routes. Off with their heads. I point my buttocks in their general direction, let that be a lesson to them. One final thing, your poll should include a voting space for, It Depends (tm).
...Phil...
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wombby |
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Dani Andrada 6 years
(12/11/08 3:08 PM) Dog whisperer
|
I would say it's OK with the lettering at KP, some of the walls there are pretty damn featureless. Frog - hmmm, almost, there are enough features there
that one could work out where each climb is.
|
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chilli84 |
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Lunchbox legend
(18/11/08 8:06 AM) |
After only climbing Frogs and KP since i have been here my knowledge is limited, I would say from my experience that if you are going to have no markings then
you will need a decent guide book with detailed descriptions of the start and finish of the climbs. With a good guide its easy to find routes with no markings.
I have that little KP green guide book and so far it hasn't been that helpful. I am guessing this is because the climbs are already marked with over sized
letters. I am against marking climbs for the most part in featureless areas a small letter or dot every 10-20 meters is ok. But a good clear guide on spots is
really all you need providing there are enough features to distinguish the climbs.
Just my two cents Chris |
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manacubus |
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(20/11/08 4:43 PM) Shhh! |
If you're a local, you hate the paint. If you're a visiting climber, you bless the paint and lay kisses upon it.
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Brother Colin |
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David Graham 4 years
(20/11/08 4:54 PM) |
I have visited a few cliffs in a few different countries over the years and a good guide book can make life sooo much easier for the visiter. Eg: a photo of
the cliff with some/all the routes marked on the photo is usually best/easiest way of identifying a climb/route. Markings are not necessary then. Sometimes
route finding is part of the adventure.
Climb Hard, Climb Safe.
|
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chilli84 |
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Lunchbox legend
(21/11/08 9:19 AM) |
manacubus wrote: Totaly the truth, but still a good guide can solve all the problems for Tourists like me!!
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Bill Strachan |
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Beanie-wearing boulderer
2 years
(21/11/08 10:02 AM) |
Brother Colin wrote: Couldn't agree more Colin. Like most people here, I've had days that have turned out nothing like I had planned because of the difficulty of finding the start of a route, but I have never had a day wasted! Bill |
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manacubus |
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(21/11/08 2:14 PM) Shhh! |
In the past, I have been completely anti-paint. After doing much travelling to cliffs around the world, I realised this was because I was a local, and
wasn't thinking of visiting climbers.
Recently spoke to a few top climbers in Kalymnos about this very issue, and the discussion helped change some of my thoughts on this issue. People travel to an area to climb the routes (this relates more to sport climbing rather than adventure climbing, btw). They don't travel to an area to try to read a guidebook which may not be in their language, squint at topos, or otherwise bash around in the scrub. Route finding is not part of the adventure (of sport climbing). Certainly, a good/awesome guidebook can do most of the work with perfect topos of the routes. I've only seen a few guides worldwide that are this good. Most fall well short. Let's face it, they are hard to make, maintain, and are generally not profitable. How many issues do we have with people having accidents by mistakenly getting on the wrong routes? It happens, and wouldn't, with discrete markers. Interestingly, after a few years exposed to the elements, paint wears off rock completely. It's not permanent. We've seen this in the Glasshouse. Unlikely that this would be the case in a protected cave such as Coolum though! I'm not advocating any particular action, just some food for thought. |
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TerryS |
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Ethan Pringle
4 years
(21/11/08 5:41 PM) |
In general terms, I'm against paint marks, but don't really have a problem with occasional small, discrete markers. What gets me though, is huge fluoro
letters like those appearing in the Glasshouse from time to time. Yikes..........no excuse for this!
Some markers can be very helpful (but not absolutely necessary). But why mark every friggin' climb? Marking every tenth climb or so should be plenty to work out the lines between in conjunction with a half-decent guide. And again, 'area-specific' is the key. KP, who gives a rats arse. Frog? plenty of marking there, some good, some bad, but not a big problem at the moment. Other more 'adventurous' areas where trad is the main style, very little marking should be applied (in my opinion of course). At places like these (eg Barney, Maroon etc), route finding IS a part of the experience. |
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rightarmbad |
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Adam Ondra 6 years
(21/11/08 7:19 PM) |
How many issues do we have with people having accidents by mistakenly getting on the wrong routes? It happens, and wouldn't, with discrete markers.Anyone care to try and put a figure on that? Has anybody here, hurt themselves because they were on the wrong route? Or is this just a perceived danger? |
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|
wombby |
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Dani Andrada 6 years
(22/11/08 3:03 PM) Dog whisperer
|
How many issues do we have with people having accidents by mistakenly getting on the wrong routes? It happens, and wouldn't, with discrete markers.I'd say Steve Thompson has put paid to that theory 
|
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manacubus |
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(22/11/08 3:35 PM) Shhh! |
Well, just off the top of my head, Neil Monteith almost died by being roughly 250m off route on Clemency. The route Steaming is the result.
|
||
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