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I'd like to preface my followings statements by saying that I mean these messages as a challenge to a set of ideas within the climbing community, and not as a challenge directed at anybody as a person.

I have two guesses at the likely outcomes of a new culture emerging as a result of a general non-adherence to the `abstinence until sent' norm.

First guess is: that the amount of resentment from violations to sources of extrinsic motivation (ego damage and lack of `credit' for ascent), would not outweigh intrinsically motivated sources (the fact that climbing is inherently awesome and new routing is an engrossing activity) for climbing. This would lead to some resentment, but a continuation of new routing behaviour.

My second guess is: that a new competitive element to claiming first ascents would emerge. This scenario would mean bigger potential risks within extrinsic motivational aspects, but also potentially even greater rewards - as winning a competitive scenario is a bonus, as well as route claiming rights. This scenario may also adequately address intrinsic aspects, as climbing would still be fun!

The prediction that I hold for what would be the end result of the competitive scenario guess would be a big increase in route quality and intensity - a bit like deregulating an industry within any market really.

Both of my guesses involve no decrease in routing activity.

I also have another proposal for an outcome of a new culture of disrespecting the `abstinence until sent' norm, that is correspondent with Lee's predictions of people who (currently) bolt routes stopping due to resentment issues. This proposal is: that soon after the cessation of current bolting by current bolters, a new group of individuals who have learnt to climb within a culture possessing the new norm would start to put up routes. A likely eventuality from this new group would be a situation akin to my second guess (deregulation) emerging anyway.

Obviously these scenarios are suppositional, due the culture of climbing at this point in time.

P.S. A point of clarification: when I mentioned, `stepping on the toes of the elite,' I did not mean elitist in the sense of arrogance or inaccessability. What I did mean is that I assume that there is a good correlation between individuals who bolt and climbing ability, as well as individuals who bolt and possess respect within climbing circles. The factors involved in these assumed corellations lend themselves plausibly to a significant level of influence and a reciprocal resistance in nonbolters to wishing to challenge the involved norms.

I know that you are very approachable Phil, you're capacity to have a good climbing yarn is something to behold!

Climb happy

Yo Mr Manacubus, I am a first year psych. student (economics and law both scare me!).

In regards to the current lack of behavioural capacity of the `climb anything we want crowd,' I agree to the extent of this being generally, but not exhaustively applicable. One potential exception springs to mind: projects at Wayne's World are to my knowledge not of a particularly high grade standard. I would assume that Wayne perceives them to be `wothwhile,' otherwise my assumptions of his motivation to print them as projects in the guide would need a reappraisal.

If these projects aren't deemed to be `wothwhile' then a pejoration of the elite tag would start to seem a bit sticky..........(No offence meant - just a cheeky stab.)

Like most issues involving entrenched attitudes, direct debate over involved issues generally tends to further entrench the views of those who are espousing them. Therefore, I ask those individuals who haven't bought into either `side' of this issue to stop and consider the evidence presented from each side and come to your own point of view.

P.S. I am at no point in this thread explicitly advocating any breach in the current `abstinence until sent' norm. I AM explicitly expressing some justifications for different ways of thinking that may be adopted by people who are currently bolters, and also to those who may become bolters. My hope is that this will lead to more open projects and - (less likely) - less deleterious egoism involved in climbing's future.

Ava gudwan.