very funny joke on Cucumber Castle

Author	Comment
Trent		#81	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (05/06/07 2:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	thisrod wrote: Trent: hand stands on the edge of cliffs ... its a pretty stupid thing to do Is it as stupid as climbing the NE Buttress of Tibro? I don't think the difference is clear. Hehehe. I was going to avoid using the word stupid, as it doesn't make much of an argument, but it sounded so good. I have already touched briefly on this issue before in this thread. Something about saving my boldness for more purpose, or something wanky like that. Anyway I'll try again to make it clear. Climbing the NE Buttress has more of an element of purpose then hand stands on the edge of cliffs; when excluding the 'controlling the fear' part of it. I exclude it as I don't see much point in it. In other words: My desire to climb the NE Buttress is not derived from the controlling the fear' part; where my desire to do hands stands on the edge of cliffs would be derived entirely from 'controlling the fear' part. By element of purpose I mean...
Trent		#82	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (05/06/07 2:59 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Chickenwing wrote: Trent... don't ever go to Yosemite then So they do hand stands on the edge of cliffs a lot? Sounds like a pretty crazy place. Trent
Trent		#83	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (05/06/07 3:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sirdogalot wrote: Speak for yourself, Trent. I like leading. So do lots of people. Hi Tom, Well, I'm actually trying to speak for the majority Tom. This is my argument. Yes, you like leading. Do you use SLCD's? How about RPs or offset nuts? Do you clip modern fancy bolts, or use light weight slings and super dynamic rope? In days gone by these weren't available to climb routes ground up. Today you would be seen as crazy to venture onto a typical trad route without these modern advances. Yes, I know, some people still do, and even without ropes too! - but the majority of climbers don't indulge in this type of activity. In my hypothetical future world of the 'magical top rope', we will look at climbers leading with SLCD/RP's in the same vain as we currently look at solo climbers, and those that climb Egotistical Pineapple with hexes only You may say bollocks, but people resist change, and change eventually comes. Some good examples are... Of course climbing is about controlling fear and focussing You beg the question. Yes, this is what we are arguing about... If you don't like that maybe you should take up something that is not dangerous. Yarn. Yes, when I leave the house I cover myself in bubble wrap. 'Controlling the fear' may be required to climb a route with modern gear, but its not the reason we climb (again I'm arguing for the majority, if not myself). Eventually gear will render 'controlling the fear' unnecessary Just don't expect lead climbs to be bolted the way you like them. Oh, and for about the fifth time: I never wanted anyone to bolt CC, but if there was a bolt I wouldn't care the least. I'm just trying to find the motivations of the bolt chopper, blah blah blah. Trent Last Edited By: Trent 05/06/07 3:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
JohnMc		#84	[-]
Confident leader 4 years (05/06/07 3:40 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	thisrod: I want the bolt to not be there, and to know I can climb the route anyway. The knowledge is the point. If you don't sense the rewards that adventure climbers balance against risks, then there isn't anything for you to understand. I remember when my parents used to tell me "You'll understand when your older". Seems it is still the case. Looks like KP with it's picnic tables and BBQs is quite the adventure climbers mecca. But seriously, just to be clear, cos I am not an adventurer.... To climb past a bolt that is already there is just silly. But to argue against putting the bolt there in the first place is adventure?
sirdogalot		#85	[-]
Confident leader 1 year (05/06/07 5:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	blah blah blah pretty much covers it. trent, i think i will leave you your hypothetical future world. i am busy here on planet earth.
Chickenwing		#86	[-]
Beanie-wearing boulderer 2 years (05/06/07 5:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Here's the hand stand
Brother Colin		#87	[-]
David Graham 4 years (05/06/07 5:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nice photo chickenwing. Trent your example of using SLCD and RP's as a way of making a climb safer is wrong. The type of gear available to a climber on any particular route does not make a climb safe or bold. The number of possible placements on that climb does. There are bold trad routes and safe trad routes. Why not have bold sport climbs as well as safe sport climbs. Climb Hard, Climb Safe.
Trent		#88	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (06/06/07 10:16 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Brother Colin wrote: Trent your example of using SLCD and RP's as a way of making a climb safer is wrong. The type of gear available to a climber on any particular route does not make a climb safe or bold. The number of possible placements on that climb does. No. An example: at the top of a climb the crack widens, so the only gear that can go in is large SLCD or big bros. With out these modern devices the climbing becomes bold. So modern advances definitely makes this climb safer. Some placements don't exist without modern gear. Trent
thisrod		#89	[-]
Kleman Becan 8 years (06/06/07 10:22 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	John: Looks like KP with it's picnic tables and BBQs is quite the adventure climbers mecca. It's a practice cliff. The thing is, it takes at least as much practice to get focused and committed to runouts, as it does to get strong and efficient. If you can't feel why I want be able to climb runouts, that's your problem. Let's look at this another way. You wonder why I don't like people adding a bolt to Cucumber Castle, because they aren't mentally comfortable climbing it. Suppose I proposed bolting a hold to the crux of the Olos Slab, because I didn't feel physically comfortable climbing it. The rest of you could just skip it, and unlike a bolt in a runout, a hold that you don't use really doesn't make a difference on a sport climb. It would make the cliff a better training area for most of us, since we can't do OS as it is. Would you have a problem with this? Pardon him. He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature. Last Edited By: thisrod 06/06/07 10:45 AM. Edited 1 times.
Trent		#90	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (06/06/07 10:33 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sirdogalot wrote: blah blah blah pretty much covers it. trent, i think i will leave you your hypothetical future world. i am busy here on planet earth. Do you forget sirdoalot? You're the one that initially responded to my idea of a magical top rope. At one stage you wish to talk in the hypothetical, and then not. So maybe you are not quite as busy on 'planet earth' then you think you are. Oh, the hypocricy. To remind you, I replied to chickenwings post, using the magical top rope to suggest that people only lead because its the convenient solution. At which point you decided to join in. Trent Last Edited By: Trent 06/06/07 10:37 AM. Edited 1 times.
Chickenwing		#91	[-]
Beanie-wearing boulderer 2 years (06/06/07 10:47 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Trent wrote: I replied to chickenwings post, using the magical top rope I'd rather have magical big balls than magical top-rope any day!!!!!!!!!! Last Edited By: Chickenwing 06/06/07 5:22 PM. Edited 1 times.
Trent		#92	[-]
Tomáš Mrázek 5 years (06/06/07 11:00 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hehehehe Funny picture btw. Might have to think of a better example, as too many people are doing this hand stand thingy They probably have their own Queensland forum.
JohnMc		#93	[-]
Confident leader 4 years (06/06/07 11:34 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	thisrod I will ignore for the moment that KP is not a cliff but actually a picnic area quary and assume it is a piece of natural cliff provided my allah for our enjoyment. By placing bolts on CC you have already conceeded that it is not climbable using modern traditional means. Therefor the bolts are there for one reason. That reason is to protect the climber. If you use the bolts to gain advantage then that is called aid climbing. If you just clip the bolts but do not weight them, then that is called sport climbing. I assume you know this but seem to think that the bolt helps you climb. Clipping the bolt does not make it an easier route. Infact, hanging from one hand, and dragging out more rope than you need is actually more difficult than just climbing past the bolt. I am pretty sure that I am not alone in my climbing skill of being able to climb past a bolt. I have seen several "super hero" types like myself climb straight past a bolt they don't think is worth clipping. The only argument I can see against adding an extra bolt is that someone has already climbed it without the bolt and does not want the extra bolt added because the kudos of having ticked the climb is some how deminished. But that would just be a ego issue with nothing to do with adventure.
kcwat		#94	[-]
3 years (06/06/07 11:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A bit closer to home.
thisrod		#95	[-]
Kleman Becan 8 years (06/06/07 12:53 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	John: By placing bolts on CC you have already conceeded that it is not climbable using modern traditional means. ... Clipping the bolt does not make it an easier route. In other words, it's unclimbable with or without bolts. Do you really mean that? By the way, it isn't true that bolt pullers are never named in guidebooks. Check out the Rick White section of Andy's recent Frog guide. Trent, I don't get your "element of purpose". As far as I can see, the only point of adventure climbing is what it does to the climber. Do you simply mean that bouldering the start of CC or handstands on the edge of cliffs do nothing for you, or are you claiming they're objectively different from bold multipitches? Some very widely admired climbers have pulled handstand type stunts. Is that Salmon in kcwat's photo? There's the story of Gullich soloing Kachoong and doing pull-ups off the lip, and Sorenson seconding with the rope tied in a noose round his neck ("If if fall of this, I deserve to die!"). Pardon him. He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
kcwat		#96	[-]
3 years (06/06/07 1:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Salmon it is. On Crookneck I believe. Salmon's Leap even
JohnMc		#97	[-]
Confident leader 4 years (06/06/07 1:58 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	thisrod Sorry if I did not make myself clear. CC is perfectly climbable (if that is a word) with or without bolts. 1) However, once bolts are placed you must conceed that they are there to make the climb safer and not just for decoration or to hang potted plants from. Do you agree that bolts are placed for safety? 2) Would you then agree that safety is a subjective term that differs from one person to the next? 3) Is it at all possible that your opinion of safety may not be the only opinion at KP? Although it may be the most popular. 4) Can we agree that not having an extra bolt may scare some "chickens" off certain leads? 5) And can we agree that "adventure" climbers can still climb the climb but it will not be as much fun cos that HAVE to clip the bolt. Then you would have to agree that you have accepted the safety level without the bolt there and would have more fun not clipping it. SO DONT CLIP THE BOLT.
JohnMc		#98	[-]
Confident leader 4 years (06/06/07 2:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	By the way, it isn't true that bolt pullers are never named in guidebooks. Check out the Rick White section of Andy's recent Frog guide. They must be very brave people. If someone was expecting a bolt and fell to their death it would be a very difficult thing to sleep with every night. But I guess if you are a true adventure climber the safety of others is of no concern to you.
thisrod		#99	[-]
Kleman Becan 8 years (06/06/07 3:06 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	John, I find those last two posts rather silly. There are safe enough ways to climb Cucumber Castle with or without an extra bolt, or indeed any bolts. The only valid reason people have given for adding a bolt is that it would be convenient for them. Fine. But why isn't it OK for the next climber to remove the bolt when that's convenient for her? The thing about Cucumber Castle is that real people care enough to remove the bolt. I think you're less interested in exploring the reasons for this than disparaging them, so I won't explain further. On other KP climbs, people don't care so much, and they respect your wish for convenience. It would be nice if that respect was mutual. Pardon him. He is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.
JohnMc		#100	[-]
Confident leader 4 years (06/06/07 8:39 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	thisrod: I never said bolts are for convenience. I have always stated they are for safety. And I am still trying to understand how they inconvenience you "real" people. Using statements like "there isn't anything for you to understand" and "less interested in exploring the reasons" does not help me comprehend your thinking on the matter. So my question remains... Are bolts placed on a route for any reason other than safety? If so what are they?

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very funny joke on Cucumber Castle

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